INTERVIEW | Sir Tim Rice, BBC Maestro

Earlier this year it was announced that legendary lyricist Sir Tim Rice has joined the BBC’s Maestro platform, offering an online course on Writing and Performing Musical Theatre.

Maestro offers online masterclasses from experts in a vast range of disciplines, including some big names from creative industries like Sir Billy Connolly (comedy), Mark Ronson (music production) and ‘Line of Duty’ creator Jed Mercurio (writing drama for television).

I was invited to join Sir Tim for a Zoom call, in which he gave further information about the course and also answered a few questions from attendees. Listening to Sir Tim talk about his course, it is easy to see why the BBC approached him. As you would expect, he is a natural storyteller, and with so many stories to tell. He has a clear passion for musical theatre and as he talks, he has plenty of anecdotes to offer about his long career to date, coupled with little gems of advice and a warm and self-deprecating sense of humour.

Talking about the course, he said:

It’s drawing on the experience I’ve had in over half a century of being involved in musical theatre, initially by accident! No two people who have had any good fortune in theatre at all, musical theatre or otherwise, have followed the same path but you can pick up advice and thoughts from those who’ve been down their own path and that’s what I’m trying to share. I’m drawing on my experiences of hit and flops and good and bad ideas.

I didn’t know anything about the musical theatre form really when I started but I wanted to write things that I would like if someone else had written them. Not knowing the “rules” was almost a plus, and I was lucky to team up with somebody at a very young age, (Andrew Lloyd Webber!), who DID know a lot about musicals. We had a combination of somebody who even at 17 was an expert in musical theatre, and by contrast I hadn’t seen a lot of theatre, I didn’t live in London, I was into rock and roll and pop music. So, our combination of incredible knowledge and pig ignorance worked rather well!

I do have a few golden rules for musicals which by and large work if you follow them but I’d never dream of telling anybody what subject to take and how to write in terms of what sort of music or construction of plot. Those things are entirely up to the people who want to create musicals and one shouldn’t interfere with what they want to do.

Sir Tim will be joined on the course by a number of expert guests, including eight-time Oscar winning composer Alan Menken, esteemed casting director Jane Deitch and theatrical producer Nick Allott.

On the importance of building an expert team to stage a musical, Sir Tim said:

I’m really only a words man and musical theatre is probably the area of theatre where you need more experts than almost any other form. If a play is good, you’ve got to have a good writer, director and actors but in some plays you barely need a set. Now with a musical you’ve got to have music, lyrics, you probably need a book (which may or may not be written by chap who wrote the lyrics), musicians, choreography, usually a pretty impressive set because very essence of musicals is a great visual quality as well. So, for all these elements you have to have people who are at top of their game if you’re going to have a hit. I always think of Evita in that respect, when we did it first with Hal Prince he brought in great designers, a choreographer, wonderful actors, conductor, musical director, orchestra …  there so many aspects!

Although the course will be a fascinating insight into musical theatre for anybody with a passion for the genre, it will offer particularly helpful advice and encouragement to people starting out in the industry.

Asked about his own influences, Sir Tim said:

Writing funny lyrics always appealed to me, so I loved WS Gilbert. I didn’t go to many shows but my parents had a lot of cast albums from the 50s and early 60s. I didn’t really know it at the time but the songs I loved best had interesting words. For me, My Fair Lady for me topped the charts for brilliant lyrics. I was also influenced by Flanders and Swann, a very witty and middle class cabaret act who wrote wonderful songs like The Hippopotamus Song (Mud mud glorious mud) and songs about double decker London buses.

But I was just as much influenced by great rock lyrics from people like Chuck Berry or Jerry Lieber who wrote lyrics for Elvis, he was another one way ahead of his time. Also, Eddie Cochrane, a rocker who died at the age of 21, poor chap, in a car crash. He wrote some wonderful couplets and lyrics, they were witty, but sometimes sad at same time.

I didn’t know I was going to be a songwriter, I did write a couple of songs with the tune as well, trying to sell my voice (which failed dismally), and I suppose in those songs I was slightly influenced by Bob Dylan.

Again, I think in a way it was helpful not knowing too many theatrical writers that well. I remember seeing a really old show Salad Days, when I was nine. It had a great line:

“We’re looking for a piano
A piano?
Yes a piano
Just any old pia –
NO! – the one that makes you dance”

I liked the idea of “pia-NO”, things like that appealed to me even when I was very young.

I asked Sir Tim whether there is anybody he would like to collaborate with on a future project:

I’m not sure there is, in the sense that I’m not thinking “If only I could work with X or Y”.

I’m not an expert in any field other than lyrics and I have quite a lot of knowledge about composers I like. So, by and large if there’s a good producer on board, they will assemble a good team and I’m going to go along with it. I’ve got a show opening in Milwaukee (From Here to Eternity) which had good reviews but wasn’t a commercial success. I normally get terrible reviews and a big hit, this time it was good reviews but wasn’t a hit, I think I would rather it have other way round! The team in Milwaukee hasn’t worked on Broadway yet so they’re on way up, and sometimes they are really good and looking for their break so that’s exciting.

When it comes to writing, there are many I’d love to work with, I’m a great fan of Bary Gibb, he also writes extremely good lyrics so he wouldn’t need me!  I’m doing a couple of songs with Andrew at moment, not for a new musical, but adding songs to a comedy I hope will come out some time in the next year. I’ve also talked about doing shows with Rick Wakeman The key thing for any show is the story, if you’ve got a good story and can tell it well you’re halfway there. A good story will inspire a good composer even more and also encourage me to write (or try to write) lyrics that match up to the strength of that story.

On the subject of exciting new musicals, he talked about the phenomenon that is Six and, the latest new musical to wow the critics, The Little Big Things:

One reason Six is a hit (and not the only reason) is it’s short, people think they’ll go and have supper afterwards and end up seeing a show that’s fantastic that they might not have gone to. People who are not theatre nuts don’t want to see something that’s two and a half hours long but short is good! Six is intriguing as it was very original in its concept and very contemporary, it could only have been written round about now which is good. The other one that everybody’s raving about, The Little Big Things, is meant to be brilliant, so I’ve got to see that one.

Finally, asked to sum up his Maestro course, Writing and Performing Musical Theatre, in just one word, Sir Tim opted for “intriguing”. The BBC’s principles, used by John Reith at its inception in 1922, are to “inform, educate and entertain”. Having listened to him speak so eloquently about musical theatre and his experiences in a legendary career, I am confident that Sir Tim Rice’s course promises to live up to these values in every way. 

Sir Tim Rice’s BBC Maestro course on Writing and Performing Musical Theatre is available from the 27th of September.