INTERVIEW | Michèle Taylor MBE, Ramps on the Moon.

Ramps on the Moon is changing the arts and culture sector by elevating the presence of deaf and disabled people into the heart of theatre, on and off stage. Michèle Taylor, Director for Change, co-founder of Ramps on the Moon and UK leader on Disability Equality, has launched her first podcast series where she delves deep into mainstream theatre to discover what the realities are now, and what the future holds for disability equality in the arts.

In the podcast, Michèle talks to industry guests about their personal experiences as well as their organisational learning.

We are really excited by this podcast so our writer Natasha wanted to ask Michèle more about it!

What has been your favourite part of the podcast series so far?  

Oh, that’s simple - having the luxury of time to sit down with these fantastic people, to chat through important and fascinating subjects and hear about their experiences.

Can you name a guest who you would love to feature on a podcast episode in the future, and tell us why? 

Oh, so many. I’ve been asked this a few times and my answer changes all the time. Today my response would be Brian Cranston or Brian Cox - because they have publicly stated that non-disabled actors should be able to play disabled characters. I’d love to talk with either (or both!) of them to really get to the bottom of why they think this, a chance for us to appreciate each other’s perspective.

If people enjoy the podcasts and want to find out more about Ramps on the Moon, its history and current work, where should they look? 

The website is the best place to start - rampsonthemoon.co.uk - there are resources up there. It’s also worth searching for Ramps on the Moon on YouTube as there are lots of films there giving you a flavour of our shows, as well as some interviews.

We are now seeing more “relaxed” performances in theatres. Who are these primarily aimed at, and what best practice does Ramps on the Moon recommend? 

A relaxed performance is generally one where, for example, some onstage effects are dialled back or removed completely, where the lighting levels in the auditorium might be a little higher than usual, and where audience members are not necessarily expected to sit and behave themselves in ways that we’ve come to accept we should. There is often also an introduction at the start of the show to orientate audience members to what’s going on.

I hesitate to say who a relaxed performance is for because the point is really to give people enough information so that they can decide for themselves whether this is an environment they’d prefer to a traditional set-up.

We base everything we do on the Social Model of Disability which states that I am not disabled by my impairments (I don’t have disabilities) but rather I am disabled by the barriers and obstacles in my environment that I have to navigate or avoid. It’s social, physical, cultural structures which disabled people (I’m a disabled person).

The Social Model therefore leads us to focus on the environment and not the individual or their medical conditions, so it becomes unhelpful to describe a show or a job as being for a specific type of person or for people with a specific medical condition. It's much better to describe the environment, including how barriers have been removed, so that people can make their own minds up.

What sort of changes are being/need to be put in place to increase accessibility for stage crew, musicians and designers? 

That’s such an important question. Again, I’m basing my response on the Social Model and say that this is going to depend entirely on who the person is, what their specific role is and what aspects of the working environment they find problematic.  The important and most fundamental change is to normalise conversations about access requirements and access riders (documents in which people set out the conditions they need in order to do their best work, ways in which barriers can be removed so that they can be their most effective, creative and safe).

Examples of removing barriers include giving information in a range of formats, ensuring breaks are long enough for everyone to get the refreshments and rest they need, being flexible about how tasks are divvied up within a team, checking how everyone communicates during tech to ensure that everybody can access the information and do their jobs on an equitable basis, putting longer lead-in times into your planning to ensure that your creative team can work at their own realistic pace. 

Fundamentally, it’s about creative thinking, ditching assumptions and ‘the way we’ve always done it’, and paying attention to each individual - with a bit of tech wizardry thrown in every now and then. It’s a can-do attitude that’s needed.

I saw Our Country’s Good at Nottingham Playhouse a few years ago which brilliantly integrated D/deaf actors, signing and captioning into the production and was a fantastic piece of theatre. My own bias meant that I didn’t expect it to be as good as it was. How can ableist audiences be encouraged to adjust their attitudes and have higher expectations? 

Exposure, I think. Just making sure that there’s plenty of brilliant work for audiences to see. Our founding partners all agree that engaging with disabled professionals enriches the quality of their work. I think we are seeing this happen. It’s not that unusual any more to go to the theatre and see someone disabled onstage; the same is true of television. We’ve definitely seen audience attitudes change since the first Ramps on the Moon production, which was The Government Inspector at Birmingham REP in 2016. This creates a virtuous circle, whereby disabled people also see themselves onstage so they begin to realise that the theatre is a realistic career option for them; this means more disabled people working in theatre and so the cycle goes on. That challenges ableism powerfully.

And your phrase, ‘higher expectations’ is important: disabled people working in theatre don’t want a free pass, we want to be held to high standards. Jamie Beddard, a brilliant disabled actor and director who was a Ramps on the Moon Agent for Change, always used to say that he’d know he’d made it as an actor when he got a bad review: we want the privilege of being able to ‘fail’ just as other people are allowed the occasional duff performance, or mediocre production.

I know Ramps have done a lot of work incorporating visible disability and D/deafness. Obviously, it is less visible to the audience if people involved in a production have hidden disabilities. Can you share any examples of where Ramps has worked/is working to include more people with hidden disabilities? 

We’ve been doing this from the beginning. In many ways, we haven’t made a distinction: the work has always been about providing space for disabled people to shine, when they’ve previously faced barriers in their career. The latest show, Village Idiot, was written by Samson Hawkins, who is neurodivergent and the company included other neurodivergent people as well as a learning disabled actor. We’ve worked with people with a whole range of experiences including non-visible physical impairments. As long as we’re working to remove the barriers we’re happy. 

Sometimes an individual working on a Ramps show has wanted to state publicly that they’re disabled, for example in the programme notes, which is great; and sometimes they haven’t - which is also great. It’s entirely up to them, we’re not going to force anyone to ‘out’ themselves. We want to disrupt the game of ‘spot the disabled person’ and we definitely don’t want any disabled person involved in a Ramps show to feel that they have to speak on behalf of their whole community.

It was interesting to listen to Amy talk on the podcast about how Shakespeare’s Macbeth provided a great text to get creative with – Ramps have also produced Much Ado About Nothing. Are we allowed to know if another Shakespeare play is coming up? Or what else is in the pipeline? 

Well, we’re in a transition and development phase right now, fundraising and starting early conversations with new organisations hungry for change. So watch this space! Our founding partners are continuing to be part of Ramps, supporting the new phase of work, and they have exciting projects and shows coming up, for example, The Real and Imagined History of the Elephant Man at Nottingham Playhouse which is due to open in September. The important thing is that all the brilliant people who’ve directed Ramps shows, including Amy, and Rob Hastie who directed Much Ado About Nothing, have said that their work has been impacted by that experience, so you’ll see the work of disabled people across those theatres’ programmes.

It's also worth keeping an eye on Ramps Cymru, a partnership in Wales between Theatr Clwyd, Pontio Arts Centre, the Sherman Theatre, Torch and the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. We’ve been supporting them to develop a Welsh initiative inspired by Ramps on the Moon,  and there will be some exciting work and projects coming out of that collaboration.

How positive do you currently feel about the future of accessible theatre? 

Actually, really positive. We’re in such a different place as an industry from where we were in 2015. There’s no room for complacency, of course; there’s still a great deal of work to be done and whole swathes of the industry to be convinced, but on the whole I feel optimistic. It feels like we’re approaching a tipping point.

What one thing can individuals do to help further Ramps on the Moon’s work? 

Listen to the podcast and tell everyone else you know to listen to it! All the guests bring up such interesting things to think and talk about, and the more we can get this conversation happening, the more progress we will make.

And finally, Michèle, congratulations on your recent MBE for services to disabled people and theatre. What was the best part of attending the ceremony at Windsor Castle?

Thank you! The morning at Windsor was so enjoyable. There was a genuine atmosphere of celebrating the achievements of the people who were there to receive awards. The staff were all very attentive and seemed to enjoy chatting with us. I just loved the excuse to dress up - after all, if you can’t push the boat out to meet the King, when can you?!

The first three episodes of the Ramps on the Moon podcast are now available to stream for free via their website, with transcripts included: https://rampsonthemoon.co.uk/podcast/.